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User talk:Surgo
Welcome! Hi Surgo -- we're excited to have Dungeons and Dragons Wiki as part of the Wikia community! Now you've got a whole website to fill up with information, pictures and videos about your favorite topic. But right now, it's just blank pages staring at you... Scary, right? Here are some ways to get started. * Introduce your topic on the front page. This is your opportunity to explain to your readers what your topic is all about. Write as much as you want! Your description can link off to all the important pages on your site. * Start some new pages -- just a sentence or two is fine to get started. Don't let the blank page stare you down! A wiki is all about adding and changing things as you go along. You can also add pictures and videos, to fill out the page and make it more interesting. And then just keep going! People like visiting wikis when there's lots of stuff to read and look at, so keep adding stuff, and you'll attract readers and editors. There's a lot to do, but don't worry -- today's your first day, and you've got plenty of time. Every wiki starts the same way -- a little bit at a time, starting with the first few pages, until it grows into a huge, busy site. If you've got questions, you can e-mail us through our . Have fun! -- Catherine Munro Hellos I am Eiji-kun, the Greenest Dragon of them all. Also, hello. ...it's a shame about GD. Seriously, I thought I left this sort of high school drama back in cyberchat. Oh well, Long Live King Surgo. -- Eiji-kun 03:33, 12 August 2009 (UTC) Help offered I'm a semi-newb lisp/python programmer, and though i have little to none experience in web-based programming, i might be able to help out with something. --Hijax 06:09, 16 August 2009 (UTC) :What needs to be done is the nav pages. You can take a look at the other nav pages I set up if you want a reference. Right now I'm just half-assing some DPL or basic semantic wiki queries in order to get something vaguely functional up for the site opening (in the process uncovering some lingering problems). I have no problem writing the new advanced nav pages myself, I just can't do it right now. Surgo 14:53, 16 August 2009 (UTC) The Spider-Guy Has Arrived! Hey, its Sam Kay from the previous wiki, and I'm joining your plight due to the actions of GD. I have two questions I would like to ask... # Would you like me to help setting up the 4th edition section, as I have set it up before (on the previous wiki)? # I've brought along all of my inportant creations from D&D wiki via the export page thing, but the import tool on this wiki will not let me import the data. Can you set things up that will allow me to import my creations? Thanks. --Sam Kay 12:53, 17 August 2009 (UTC) :Hey. Yes, I would love the help setting up the 4th edition section -- I know nothing about it. And you can now use the import tool. So good to not only have you here, but someone who cares about 4e. Surgo 15:02, 17 August 2009 (UTC) ::Also, we're trying to set up many a semantic mediawiki property for better, more fine-grained search capabilities by users. Not sure how much you know about semantic properties but, if you know anything at all, can you see what properties should be made for various 4e pages and make them? Surgo 15:04, 17 August 2009 (UTC) :::Thanks for the warm welcome. I'll set up 4e as fast as I can, though I'll have to read up on the semantic stuff (my knowledge on semantics is piddly) and see what I can do. -- 19:07, 17 August 2009 (UTC) ::::Oh, I've found some problems with the import tool. Some pages that I have uploaded have dead links that actually lead to existing pages... see Arachonomicon; the Book of Spiderkind (4e Sourcebook) for what I mean. -- 20:37, 17 August 2009 (UTC) :::::If you come to our chat (http://ironcity.nexxushost.com), I can explain in detail how the DPL and Semantic Wiki systems work. Surgo 03:36, 18 August 2009 (UTC) ::::::I have finnished setting up the 4e section. -- [[User:Sam Kay| Sam Kay ']] talk 13:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC) Signing Up Quick question on joining. I'm already listed on the Local Users List (this is Hooper by the way), as some of the pages from the old wiki I did were brought over already (looks like mostly nav stuff). Anyways, I think that may be interfering with my ability to create an account as it already lists "me" as active. That, or I'm blocked. If its the first, any idea how to get around that so I can join? If its the second, fair enough. :It's neither, actually. User names are Wikia wide, which means if somebody signed up for the name "Hooper" on another Wikia (there are many), it's taken here too. Surgo 00:21, 20 August 2009 (UTC) Hey Surog Hey man, I was hoping to try and help get the nav pages for 3.5e homebrew completed. If you could stop by Ironcity and explain how all that 'Semantic Mediawiki' stuff works, that'd be awesome. Cya later man. → Rith (talk) 21:02, 20 August 2009 (UTC) :Sure, I'd be happy to. Surgo 21:45, 20 August 2009 (UTC) Just to be clear... We can take our stuff from the other wiki and put it here, right? Lost Dracula 21:37, 20 August 2009 (UTC) :Yes. Surgo 21:44, 20 August 2009 (UTC) April Fools Although this wiki focuses on rigorous quality control, is there any problem with posting April Fools content? Should we perhaps have a different (more general) category called "Joke" or something like that? --Aarnott 16:12, 21 August 2009 (UTC) :I think that we should allow 'april fools' content, as long as it is of quality... so it should be formatted correctly, and so on. -- '[[User:Sam Kay| Sam Kay ']] talk 21:21, 21 August 2009 (UTC) ::You don't really need my permission for this, guys. But just in case: I give April Fools my blessing. Surgo 03:25, 26 August 2009 (UTC) Advertising I don't know if you've seen this yet Surgo, but if not it's at least a partial answer to your question. Past that I'll wait and see what I hear back from Cat. TarkisFlux 04:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC) :Actually, having just finished skimming that page, it looks like you're encouraged to go link yourself off to whatever you want blog / board wise. So I think the sort of advertising you're planning on is fine. If there are any other hoops or weird bits I'll let you know. TarkisFlux 04:45, 26 August 2009 (UTC) ::Confirmation - there are no limits on advertising. Go nuts.TarkisFlux 21:58, September 7, 2009 (UTC) Transferring from the "other" wiki Hello. I was a long time lurker and some-time contributor on the old wiki. After reading about the "wiki-ocalypse" as I heard it called, I am thinking about transferring my stuff over here. I have heard you folks are going to be big on "quality control". My work is pretty casual, and at the moment is only a half-finished campaign setting. I feel that the work that has been done on it is quite good, but I work very slowly and it may not be done for some time. That seemed to be okay on the old wiki, but I was wondering what the policy over here would be on half-finished but good quality work. Thanks and sorry to be a bother, --Jiyambi :As long as you actually have a plan to finish it, and won't feel bad if it's marked as unfinished as you work on it, it should be okay. Just understand that it will probably be marked as unfinished, and you should come around and check up on it/us occasionally so we know you haven't left for good! Surgo 14:25, September 3, 2009 (UTC) New Guy Hi I'm new and I've been adding some stuff but noticed that you deleted some of it, Surgo. Any particular reason you're eliminating content? It had good grammar, no spam, and was properly tagged so is it that I haven't been here long enough or is there some process you need to go through before you allow stuff to stay? Is there something in particular I need to do? Please let me know now before you delete other things I've put up. :The problem, my friend, is that a lot of it just...doesn't work. See the reasons in the delete template. Generally things that don't have good grammar and proper tagging don't make it here in the first place -- that template is reserved for stuff that doesn't work. The problems are that your monk variants aren't helpful in the least at fixing the core problems that the monk has. Your feats I haven't actually read your feats, but follow the link in the delete template -- that's where you add feats, and it's usually done on a one-feat-per-page basis (though it doesn't have to be). Your variant rules do not appear to be totally thought out for every level of the game, and are bad for the game when implemented. If you don't understand why these pages are bad, please join the chat and I'll happily explain in detail. Surgo 14:45, September 9, 2009 (UTC) ::Also, I have not deleted it yet; it has merely been ''tagged for deletion if the problems aren't fixed. Surgo 14:46, September 9, 2009 (UTC) :::I'm going to add a little more to this -- yes, we are assholes. Our standards are ridiculously high. That's because we want everything on this site to be usable. We are not '''ever going to beat around the bush when it comes to telling someone that something sucks or isn't usable. Sorry if it offends anyone, but that's how a good homebrew site gets made. Surgo 14:57, September 9, 2009 (UTC) ::::Also note that if you want help, we are more than happy to help you bring articles up to a high quality. ou just have to be a willing to let go of things that aren't working well. --Andrew Arnott (talk, ) 15:31, September 9, 2009 (UTC) :::::Good homebrewing cannot be done by assholes. Any intelligent human being can critique politely or at least not rudely. I am just learning about these templates and that's fine, but it's unnecessary to say "suck" or "shit" in every sentence like a 12-year old who doesn't know how to express himself. Surgo, either you're not a good balancer or you're just in a bad mood today. There are generally 3 player types: Combat oriented, Magic oriented and Skill oriented. Where you obviously know your stuff about combat, you don't seem to understand/pay attention to other aspects of the game in your responses to me (at least thusfar). You also have some sort of grudge against 4th edition that can only be described as a mix between the emotions of a "jealous ex" and "racist hick." I'm not 4th edition's biggest fan but why all the playa-hatin'? If you're just having an off-day I can understand but if you really mean it when you say "we're assholes" then this is not a site I nor any self-respecting person want to be a part of and I will gladly withdraw my comments if you at least have the decency to let me do that. --Arkangelknight (talk, ) 01:26, September 10, 2009 (UTC) ::::::This is the second place you posted this. Never mind the nonsensical "good brewing cannot be done by assholes" fallacy (if you really can't tell that this is fallacious, I will be happy to explain it to you), I'm sorry you got all sad because nobody liked your homebrew, but the fact of the matter is that most stuff people write is crap. Most stuff I write is crap, most stuff everyone here writes is crap. And usually we recognize it's crap and don't bother to upload it. If you can't take someone telling you that something is crap, you shouldn't go post your homebrew anywhere at all -- you should write it in a diary and hide it under a pillow all emo-like. We delete crap around here. Why? So DMs and players who actually want to use the stuff can come here and find all-quality. Is it harsh? Yes. Do we think that's an acceptable price to pay for having a site full of quality that people can actually use? Yes. ::::::I'm not sure where this fourth edition thing is coming from. I mentioned fourth edition once in all my interactions with you. (And in case you didn't notice, there's a 4e section here too.) ::::::You'll notice that I didn't set up or keep up for deletion everything you made -- just the stuff I thought was particularly bad. Surgo 01:34, September 10, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::I'm going to recommend you add more words to your vocabulary other than "suck" and "crap", as I'm becoming increasingly suspicious that you're actually an angry 12-year old who just discovered the internet and not a teen or adult homebrewer. If you think something's crap, that's not actually a legitimate excuse for "not working" in a system. Saying, "this would provide a problem in the game because X" or "this could allow X's to do Y's, which isn't fair" would be more appropriate. Or maybe try a helpful SUGGESTION for fixing things? Or maybe if all else fails and your brain gears just don't process just say, "I don't like this, it doesn't seem right for the site" and tell someone it sucks without being insulting. ::::::::I don't have a problem with your distaste or your deletions, only your childish comments and rude insults and my comment on your opinions about 4th edition was very appropriate given your comment about 4th edition. Reread your post. You said NEVER use 4th edition because it sucks. What is someone supposed to think about your opinion of 4th edition? ::::::::Anyway, I didn't come here to get sucked into a flamewar with a childish person, I actually thought there was some nice homebrewing going on here. I suppose I was mistake. I will not add "crap" to your little world any more. --Arkangelknight (talk, ) 01:26, September 10, 2009 (UTC) :::::::::If you'll note all the messages I left on the pages when I nominated them for deletion, you'll see that I did explain exactly what was bad with them. I'm sorry you didn't notice that because you were busy being angry that I called them "crap" in the same sentence or sentences, but it was all there. Surgo 01:50, September 10, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::::Like I said before "it sucks, I don't like it" doesn't count as anything other than a vague opinion aimed at insulting people for no other reason than that the commenter is angry and childish. No thank you. --Arkangelknight (talk, ) 01:29, September 10, 2009 (UTC) :::::::::::I really, really dislike being misrepresented. Here is exactly what I said (what you quoted never shows up): :::::::::::* Totally broken at low levels. A Rogue having a limit to their Sneak Attack then is, in fact, a very good thing for their balance. (for the Attacks Variant. Uh, looks like I described the problem pretty well here.) :::::::::::* Pathetically weak; not worth the price of a feat. (for Great Ability. Says exactly what the problem is -- it's not worth spending a very valuable feat on.) :::::::::::* You just took a fighter, and made him even worse. Can anyone seriously say they would actually use this? (for the Fighter Variant. The page replaced a Fighter's abilities with that of a Monk. The Monk is an even worse class than the core Fighter.) :::::::::::* Does nothing to actually help the monk not suck. (For the Monk variant unarmed strike. Exactly what it says -- it doesn't help the Monk with any of his actual problems.) :::::::::::* Works horribly (a reason one should not try to do anything the 4e way). There are plenty of combat spells and abilities you would want to use out of combat. Using this results in dropping a rat or a beetle to start an "encounter" so you can use your abilities and then have them again when the next encounter rolls around. Not good for the game. (For the Uses Variant. Explains exactly why it's bad.) :::::::::::"it sucks, I don't like it" never shows up. Any time you asked for clarification, I provided it. I'm not sure what you have a problem with here other than me not thinking your homebrew is awesome. Surgo 02:00, September 10, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::::::I was not quoting you directly. Sorry if that's the impression you got. I was noting that in general saying "it sucks" does not explain anything. "Not suck"? You ask it to not suck? That really doesn't even make any sense. I also noticed you've conveniently misplaced some of your other comments. Figures as much. Look, I'm done arguing with you. Just delete my contributions and I'll log off your little site where you like to insult your users to feel like a big boy. I don't want to deal with "assholes" as you claim not only you are but your fellow admins are. I certainly hope that's not true of everyone, but either way just leave me be. Goodnight. --Arkangelknight (talk, ) 01:29, September 10, 2009 (UTC) :::::::::::::I didn't selectively quote anything...I quoted every last candidate for deletion I posted on your pages. I do not believe I missed a single one. But if you want me to delete all your stuff, so be it. Surgo 02:10, September 10, 2009 (UTC) (Reset indentation) Surgo, I support the QC angle you've got going on, but I think this flareup is an example of things to come. This might've been handled a lot differently if there was another flag for these sorts of things other than 'candidate for deletion', which strikes me as pretty heavy handed. Can we get a 'candidate for assistance, below minimum balance level' tag at all that we could stick these sorts of things with, or failing that just rate it 'below minimum balance guidelines' and leave visitors to use appropriately? It would hopefully save you from explaining to contributors why their stuff is up for deletion and making them feel unwanted while also preserving your QC guidelines.TarkisFlux 03:11, September 10, 2009 (UTC) :You probably hit the nail on the head here. Candidate for Assistance is a pretty good idea, and I will implement it in the morning. Surgo 03:32, September 10, 2009 (UTC) ::I've been edit-jumped, so apologies if this lacks the same relevance, but I'm just going to add that I agree with Tarkis, to an extent. AAK at least demonstrated some level of respect for the English language and I think you may have put him on the defensive too quickly. It took me perhaps three or four weeks to get from '10d6/round at will at level 20 is stretching the limits of balance' to '20d6/round at will at level 20 may be a little strong, but is by no means broken.' My point is only that if people are given the chance to adapt, they can with the right input and effort. It would be a shame to scare off potential contributors without at least attempting to reform them first. -- Jota 03:36, September 10, 2009 (UTC) :::I'll admit I might have been a little too harsh, but I have to say -- him stooping to the level he was accusing me of (insults and all) certainly did not make me feel charitable. Surgo 03:40, September 10, 2009 (UTC) ::::'Template:Needs Balance' springs to mind. ::::Now then, I'm all up for this idea, as long as there is a 'fail-safe', if you will, for the Needs Assistance template, so that we don't have a bulging category that no one will go near full of articles that will never be fixed. I think the best way to fix this problem would be to give this theoretical template a way to 'upgrade' itself, after, say, 5 days, the Needs Assistance template has a contingent function to remove itself, and add the delete template, with the reason 'Issue's not fixed' (or something to that effect). If this is not possible, then, I'd say, create a bot that will patrol the category, and check the templates, changing them when necessary. Continuing this thought, the delete template should have a way to say 'hey, times up', such as, say, after 5 days of the delete template being put on a work, it alerts the most recently active admin to the fact, asking them to charge ahead and delete it. The issue also exists that a person could simply remove the template though (I leave this one for you guys to solve). → Rith (talk) 04:11, September 10, 2009 (UTC) :::::It seems to me to be mostly a problem with naming and perceptions. I perceive "Needs Assistance" to be the same thing as "Needs Deletion" -- stuff inside of it gets deleted after a week -- the difference being in the name. It's a nicer name, shouldn't be so offputting. Surgo 04:20, September 10, 2009 (UTC) ::::::Then why not simply change the name of the delete template to 'Template:Needs Assistance' and get rid of the idiocy of having two templates, the only difference between the two of which being that one is polite, and the other isn't? → Rith (talk) 04:36, September 10, 2009 (UTC) :::::::Given that standard policy from the Balance Points page is to delete stuff that isn't tagged or fails rogue level, I'd say that there isn't a reason outside of niceties (or avoiding confusion between balance fail and routine deletions). But seriously, all that was missing from AAK's stuff was a balance level tag (and a bit of work, because some of it wasn't even monk level, but I digress), and because of that it got tagged per policy and people got pissed. It's not like it's unexpected for people to flip out when you tag their stuff for deletion and they are likely to miss a link to that policy in their anger if it's even offered to them, whereas they might not flip out and follow the relevant link if it's got a less provocative title. I'd say that it's worth it if you want to keep an active community and if you're serious about allowing lower than SGT stuff on the wiki, otherwise someone will post something without a balance point because they're not aware of the policy and it'll get tagged and the cycle begins anew. So yeah, either two semi-redundant categories or adjust the author / status box to include a balance point entry as well so it's there by default and the level of criticism can be adjusted appropriately. TarkisFlux 06:43, September 10, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::Box full of Eijis here. If the bots are able, Eiji likes the concept of a self-updating dual template. It's snazzy and doesn't afraid of anything. Can it be so? -- Eiji Hyrule 11:32, September 10, 2009 (UTC) :::::::::I can write a bot to do it easily. It is totally possible if we do decide to go that way. --Andrew Arnott (talk, ) 13:11, September 10, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::::I imagine we'd use "delete" as speedy deletion and "assistance" as non-speedy (so no botting required). Surgo 13:22, September 10, 2009 (UTC) :::::::::::Okay, it's done. A new template, , has been added and should be used from here on out. I'm glad something positive could come of this. Surgo 13:32, September 10, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::::::FYI - I added a link to the balance points page to the template, to reduce future explanations TarkisFlux 18:20, September 10, 2009 (UTC) (Reset Indentation) Wow, all this ruckus because of Surgo and me getting in a spat? Well, I'm sorry for the dispute but I'm glad this brought a good resolution. Firstly, thank you all for discussing this in a civil manner and having concerns about your users. As far as the templates go, I may only be a user but I think that the assistance is a good idea. A "deletion template" seems like a bad idea since anyone seeing it would only assume the post has already been deemed as deleted rather than needing work or improvement. The assistance template will work much better, but just so you are all aware it was not the deletion which caused my negative responses but the insulting language used in them such as saying everything "sucks" and the response that "we're assholes" so deal with it. This may not have meant to be an attack, but it certainly seemed like it and thus why the "flareup" occurred. On that note, I apologize for using insulting language myself. Just because I wasn't first to do so doesn't make me less of an ass for engaging in it. I'm not perfect but I try to be civil about disagreements and critiques. Normally such an argument would indeed scare away potential contributors such as myself, but I saw this discussion and changed my mind. Surgo, as far as I can tell from this discussion, your fellow admins are not assholes and they don't need to be to keep up high standards, nor do you. They're pretty nice and rational as far as I can tell and I'm sure you can be just as nice and civil when you want to be. I don't know what brought about the initial hostility towards me but you have my apologies and I hope we can put that behind us and just have fun homebrewing and balancing. Again, I'm sorry for the dispute and I would actually like to continue contributing on this wiki without the harsh language if that's okay with everyone. Arkangelknight 19:41, September 10, 2009 (UTC) :That's quite fine with me. In response to such a long and sincere post, I think I probably should explain myself a bit. Please, no one take this as an attempt of justifying my actions (it's not). :First of all, I am probably a poor choice for the head administrator of the website -- it fell to me because I had both the drive to do it and the technical knowledge. This puts me in a bit of a strange position because I have to (and want to) enforce the mission statement of the project. This is a strange position because I am not particularly capable of being kind (I use that word over nice because nice carries a meaning of "being inoffensive" -- it's as easy to be a nice asshole as it is to be a mean or caustic one, and I fall under "caustic" myself), or verbose. So I put what I find incorrect in things into phrasings that are both terse and not-so-kind. Terse is problematic because those who are unfamiliar may not necessarily understand what I'm trying to say or why I'm saying it. Not-so-kind, well, I do not believe this is a problem but some get offput by such things. (However, please understand that it is a fallacy to ignore criticism or the good works of someone who is an asshole. A good point made by Robert Mugabe is still a good point, even if the guy making it does happen to be Robert Mugabe.) :I think I lost my train of thought somewhere along here, so I guess I'll end with "hope you and anyone else enjoy the wiki". Surgo 20:01, September 10, 2009 (UTC) ::Thanks for telling me that, I appreciate it. Yes, it's probably not that fair for the position to just fall on you like that. I can understand you having a particular personality quirk that doesn't mesh perfectly in some areas, I'm not flawless myself. Mine is actually the opposite quirk where I may sometimes take things too seriously or confuse sarcasm with literalism. If I can't hear someone's tone of voice, it's really hard to discern the difference given the wide variety of personality types available in a small area when you use the internet. I never actually argued against your criticisms, in fact I edited some of the things based exclusively off your comments, I just felt offended at the language being used to convey those ideas. I can take helpful criticism and love suggestions and advice, I just don't like being put down or talked down to; it's really offensive. Granted, now I know you sincerely don't intend to be terse, I can have a little more patience and vice versa I hope. If you want, I'd be happy to help reword your criticisms in a way that doesn't sound terse or caustic. Or if not, just let me know how else I can help. Arkangelknight 17:36, September 11, 2009 (UTC) NifScript Yeah, I use DragoonWraith as my handle everywhere. Been using it for about a decade now... as far as I am aware, all references to DragoonWraith on the Internet refer to me. Anyway, awesome that you like that project. It is very cool. Unfortunately, with me in college, time to mod is limited... and I really need to finish up ARES. NifScript 1.0 is coming after that, though, and my work on ARES has taught me a lot about OBSE's serialization interface (which is exactly the hold-up on NifScript 1.0). Anyway, it's great to see another Oblivion enthusiast at GitP; FlyFightFlea is actually PId6 on GitP, too. DragoonWraith † 03:02, September 10, 2009 (UTC) Tome Godfather You are the Tome authority here, at least from my perspective. I have added a photo I thought appropriate to the Races of War sourcebook. If you find it displeasing, let me know and I'll find another one/leave it as is, as per your request. -- Jota 02:22, September 12, 2009 (UTC) :Now applies to either/both. -- Jota 02:38, September 12, 2009 (UTC) Moving Material Between Wikis Hello. I just signed up and am ready to start posting some of my material to the Wiki (I noticed the 4e monster section was looking a bit barren, since Sam Kay is the only one contributing to it so far :P). Before I attempt to do so, I was just wondering if this site uses all the same templates as the other Wiki (i.e. can I just copy + paste the code from there, or do I have to reformat it manually?). -- Dracomortis 21:40, September 14, 2009 (UTC) :Mostly the same format, some things have changed. For the most part you can copy pasta, with the worst offender, dpcl or whatever, screwing up the page with visible code sometimes. Every so often bots fix up old code, but not all of it yet. I'll have Surgo actually answer for this since he's the master of this stuff, but yeah, copy paste away. And welcome! -- Eiji Hyrule 01:05, September 15, 2009 (UTC) ::The templates are mostly the same. The major differences are in 3.5e, as far as I'm aware there's no difference in 4e stuff. 3.5e differences get fixed automatically by a bot I run periodically. Surgo 01:18, September 15, 2009 (UTC) :::Alright, thanks. I've run into a minor issue though. I added my Beetle (4e Creature) page, and everything seems to format correctly, but I cannot get it to show up on 4e All Creatures, 4e All Homebrew Creatures or any of the Creature By Level pages. It displays properly under the Creature category page though, so I don't think it's a category error, but I can't think of anything else that would cause it to not show up. -- Dracomortis 19:22, September 15, 2009 (UTC) ::::There are no differences in the 4e templates as of yet. To get your stuff to showe up on dpcls (such as 4e all creatures), just purge the cache of the page (click the refresh tab at the top of the page). This will fix dead links as well. Which reminds me, Surgo... I think we need to mention that on the main page. -- Sam Kay ''' talk 21:07, September 15, 2009 (UTC) :::::Those pages don't work yet. Surgo 21:07, September 15, 2009 (UTC) ::::::Thanks Sam, the links are now showing up correctly. -- Dracomortis 21:35, September 15, 2009 (UTC) Quests Page Hey, could somebody put up a quests page so I can transfer my quest from the old wiki?--ThirdEmperor 04:20, September 16, 2009 (UTC) Class Templating Upgrade Hey, I'm a noob when it comes to programing but I was wondering if you could insert a template that would allow you to select what base attack and save progression you want for your and then the template would auto insert the values? As it is, I'm still trying to find where to put them.--ThirdEmperor 05:06, September 16, 2009 (UTC) DnD footer I have updated the gaming footer that usually goes on the bottom of the Main page, to DnD centric links, you can add it by adding this code to the bottom of your main page. On a side note, I was wondering why there were 2 dnd wikis, and now I know(read your 'Merger' message). It'll be interesting to see if you can merge. On another side note, users that have '''Sysop rights already have Rollback rights, so they don't need rollback added to them, its redundant. --Sxerks 00:14, September 17, 2009 (UTC) :Hey, thanks. Do you know anything about the latest code rollout and getting some settings changed? Surgo 00:28, September 17, 2009 (UTC) ::I know Mediawiki 1.15.1 was the most recent. You can ask on the Help Desk forum on the main wiki, or if you know the exact setting do a . Staff members Uberfuzzy, Kirkburn, or KyleH will probably be the ones to respond.--Sxerks 01:25, September 17, 2009 (UTC) This way lies Madness (the capitalized type) Okay, I can't take this any longer. Please people stop buffing fighters, I mean seriously, I know that spellcasters are over powered by comparison but that's just it, the WIZARDS are overpowered, the melee characters are just fine. Heck, wizards who don't have access to death spells aren't even that bad, (Hold Persons still pretty nasty though) the real problem is metamagic, I mean a 10th level wizard can deal out 10d6 damage with a fireball but a 10th level orc fighter with the greater psionic weapon and 18 strength feat can power attack full-on with a greatsword for 6d6+28 damage for an average of 48 points of damage which is slightly MORE than the 30 points dealt by a max caster level fireballs average of 30. Problem is metamagic blows this to Baator, I'm a shameless powergamer but even I couldn't stomach the idea and here's why: with the Arcane Thesis feat from the PH2 a feat the name of which I burned from my mind and the quicken and maximize metamagic feats I managed to build a character who cold deal out 20d6+60 points of damage once per day at 10th level. That isn't right, but that doesn't mean we should boost fighters to the same level or things will just get worse. Instead, a better solution is this every time a person casts a spell they half to make a spellcraft check against a DC of (15+ spell level+ 1/2 caster level + 5 if its a death effect) if they fail the spell reverses on them if its a negative effect or has the opposite effect if it's a positive effect and the caster takes damage to his caster ability equal to the spells level, whats more the DC increases by 5 spell slot increase due to applying metamagic. I think this is a good way to fix things and it prevents the balance issues caused by altering all warrior type classes (AKA you would have to boost up all the monsters in order to deal with megawarriors). Please tell me what you think.--ThirdEmperor 09:58, September 18, 2009 (UTC) : ...If no one else replies in the morning, I'll explain shtuff. Right now it's pretty late, so I'll let someone else. But I'll explain in the morning should no-one else do so first. (If I sound weird, it's the fatigue talking.) : Oh, and fireball is a sucktastic spell. Try Glitterdust on for size, or Polymorph, or Solid Fog, or Color Spray at low level or... You get the idea. --Ghostwheel 10:22, September 18, 2009 (UTC) ::I think your "fix" is retarded. Besides, the buffing of fighter-types tends to bring them closer to rogues than clerics, wizards, or druids, so why get your panties in a twist? -- Jota 13:16, September 18, 2009 (UTC) :::I think he is asking why we all think that fighters are near the bottom of the totem pole. Note that the fighter he suggested is a monk level of balance and the wizard a fighter level of balance. --Andrew Arnott (talk, ) 13:19, September 18, 2009 (UTC) :::: MADNESS?? This! Is! D&D!!! --Ghostwheel 19:49, September 18, 2009 (UTC) :::::I'm not going to get into the specific mechanics of your idea, but just talk about the issues of nerfing casters in general. In general, you're not wrong ThirdEmperor, because you could absolutely design a game that ran like that and it would be fine. It's just that DnD 3.x has some specific assumptions that cause it to fail here. The big problem is this little thing called CR and how it's supposed to work: 1 of CR X+2 = 2 of CR X. Every time you gain 2 CR, which for characters is supposed to be 2 levels, you're supposed to be something like twice as strong. I'm not even kidding. :::::Most monsters are designed along those lines, and they're the thing that you care about players dealing with. Casters generally do just fine on that power curve as well, because their spells generally scale to it (though not the damaging spells, those were a mostly direct carry over from 2e that had a few differences that allowed direct damage to work better and had fewer direct damage counters). This means that casters are not OP, by the definition of what their power level is supposed to be. Yeah, you can optimize them above and beyond that, but that's a different issue. Fighters on the other hand, and most of the non-caster classes in general really, gain power linearly, building on their previous powers a small step at a time rather than gaining a decent jump every couple of levels. The only reason Rogues get a pass here is because they can leverage UMD to get in on the caster's game. They are, by the definition of power that 3.x uses, underpowered. :::::These issues are largely invisible when you're running a game at low levels, you only start to notice this difference in power accumulation at higher levels, say 7ish for monks and the worst of the worst and 9-12ish for everyone else. There are plenty of ways that you can sorta balance things out in those patches, like serious optimization, artifact swords, and DMs who don't fully utilize their monsters, but you can't really patch the different growth rates into the high levels and against high CR foes. :::::So your suggestion, which probably belongs on a variant page instead of Surgo's talk page (but I digress), that we crap on casters to bring them down to non-caster level, doesn't actually fix the ability of classes to deal with high CR enemies who use their abilities to the fullest. It just means that those of us who want to play our monsters intelligently and effectively can't do that anymore, because we would murder the entire party. It would not be a fair fight. We go back to mediocre auto-attacking with our Balor instead of doing something interesting and smart, like a nigh immortal high rank demon actually would. Yay. :::::So yeah, you could do it, but I don't know why you would want to. You lose lots and lots of options and you can't play monsters effectively. Honestly, if you want to keep casters and fighters more in line without rewriting the monster manual you should probably just limit your games to 7th level and below. Just tell people they won't level over 7, and then write the game like tv-serial style adventures and treasure collecting; non-level rewards can be just as flavorful and interesting as the regular ones, and non-level based advancement is fine with most people if they go in expecting it. - TarkisFlux 20:07, September 18, 2009 (UTC) Funny stuff Thought you'd get a kick out of this. See it before the delete! heh --Ghostwheel 19:47, September 18, 2009 (UTC) :I think we all already knew he was a two-faced cunt who doesn't understand that "nice" (or pretend nice, in these cases) and "kind" aren't the same concepts. Surgo 18:04, September 19, 2009 (UTC)